Westcott Leveling Kit and 35s

[Bluegill]

By all means, I'm open to debate and reconsideration if I'm missing something. I've certainly been wrong about things in the past. But that would, of course, require you to make a reasoned argument, not just a summary judgement.

I've written pages on this here on this forum and on facebook forums and in response to private message inquiries. I honestly don't have the time or desire right now.

In the meantime I'll stand by my summary judgement that your statement saying a pre-load collar reduces suspension function to something like a basic AWD sedan is an incredibly naive and incorrect hypothesis.

 

[Overandunderland]

I've written pages on this here on this forum and on facebook forums and in response to private message inquiries. I honestly don't have the time or desire right now.

In the meantime I'll stand by my summary judgement that your statement saying a pre-load collar reduces suspension function to something like a basic AWD sedan is an incredibly naive and incorrect hypothesis.

Sorry, but you are generalizing my argument, when it was actually very specific. I was not talking in general about pre-load collar lifts. Rather, I was specifically discussing the use of a preload collar lift to raise the front end of the Lexus GX550 by 2.5" when this vehicle has 4" of downtravel prior to the lift. If this had been about a more moderate lift or a different vehicle, my analysis might have been different. A lot of what suspension performance comes down to is math and geometry. The numbers matter.

 

[Overandunderland]

It depends on what you want. Rock crawling is different than going over a washout and a big rock on a logging road. Serious off roaders need the travel. For what I do, driving down miles of dirt roads, with occasional obstacles probably the additional ground clearance is more important. But I am not doing technical stuff. Of course my guess is 90% who get it lifted are just for looks anyways. For me great tires is the most important part.

Agreed there are use cases and needs. Also with you on the tires. But what people need to understand here is that a preload collar lift does not make room for bigger tires, unless it restricts the compression of the shock. What goes up will come down. There is only more room for tires if you don't compress the shocks and actually utilize the full range of the suspension. The notion that this type of lift make more room for tires is a myth and an illusion resulting from more space between the tire and top of the fender when the vehicle is at rest on the pavement.

 

[S SUBERI]

Do I dare to jump in on this conversation when I am such a lightweight on physics', math and off-roading but since I invested (like many of us) in the Westcott Preload Collar lift I thought I would pose the question to Westcott and share the answer. Before i do I would just like to add that I have been driving off-road trucks for a long time. For many years I had a Cutting Horse ranch in the Texas Hill Country and off road trucks were a necessity on several of these trucks I used a spacer type lift to allow me to go to a larger tire. We drove the hell out of these trucks and I never had to change out a shock. Now I have to admit I do it for appearance only and an occasional off- road adventure. Probably like many of us on this forum. Here's the question I asked and the answer I got back.

Question:
So the big issue re pre load collar lift is that it reduces the down travel of the shocks. Can this be fixed with a larger shock ?

Answer and discussion:
So even though the lift is 2.5 “ the loss in drop is only 1”.

That’s good with me and sounds reasonable. The other alternatives are probably too costly for my usage

You have a very minimal drop in droop travel. Keep in mind, this is at FULL DROOP, an it's actually only about an inch. Most people aren't effected by this. In my opinion if you are going full droop regularly, that client would want to upgrade the shocks.

In order to get lift, proper articulation and droop travel, you can upgrade to an extended length coilover. The only company out there at the moment is king. And we've done a few already. Such an awesome setup. But that will also require the use of different upper control arms due to the longer length shocks and increased droop.

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So the big issue re pre load collar lift is that it reduces the down travel of the shocks. Can this be fixed with a larger shock ?

---

 

[Overandunderland]

Do I dare to jump in on this conversation when I am such a lightweight on physics', math and off-roading but since I invested (like many of us) in the Westcott Preload Collar lift I thought I would pose the question to Westcott and share the answer. Before i do I would just like to add that I have been driving off-road trucks for a long time. For many years I had a Cutting Horse ranch in the Texas Hill Country and off road trucks were a necessity on several of these trucks I used a spacer type lift to allow me to go to a larger tire. We drove the hell out of these trucks and I never had to change out a shock. Now I have to admit I do it for appearance only and an occasional off- road adventure. Probably like many of us on this forum. Here's the question I asked and the answer I got back.

Question:
So the big issue re pre load collar lift is that it reduces the down travel of the shocks. Can this be fixed with a larger shock ?

Answer and discussion:
So even though the lift is 2.5 “ the loss in drop is only 1”.

That’s good with me and sounds reasonable. The other alternatives are probably too costly for my usage

You have a very minimal drop in droop travel. Keep in mind, this is at FULL DROOP, an it's actually only about an inch. Most people aren't effected by this. In my opinion if you are going full droop regularly, that client would want to upgrade the shocks.

In order to get lift, proper articulation and droop travel, you can upgrade to an extended length coilover. The only company out there at the moment is king. And we've done a few already. Such an awesome setup. But that will also require the use of different upper control arms due to the longer length shocks and increased droop.

---

So the big issue re pre load collar lift is that it reduces the down travel of the shocks. Can this be fixed with a larger shock ?

---

Thanks for sharing your discussion with Westcott! But I'd like to see their explanation of how 2.5" of lift results in only 1" loss of droop. I don't see how that would be possible. This would only make sense to me if the lift were divided between a precollar and a top spacer pushing the whole shock down. But that's not what is being advertised. A similar issue exists when people just replace their shocks with a new kit that has the same travel. A tighter spring gives lift at the expense of an equal loss in downtravel. It's just physics.

Absolutely, a longer travel shock can offer both more lift and more downtravel. These require additional component upgrades, though, to allow that travel to occur and maintain proper steering geometry.

 

[munkeeboi]

My guess is that the spacer is only about an 1” and the preloading of the spring is what nets the 2.5” gain of height.

The collar isn’t a 1 : 1 ration like a spacer lift would be.

I am new to this type of lift as well but what I could discern when researching collar lifts vs spacer lifts

 

[Bluegill]

no no no, you now have the suspension of an AWD sedan.

Remember, if you're going up 2.5 inches then the down must be sacrificing 2.5 inches. It's numbers and math and geometry. If there was only 4 inches of down-travel, then the math says it's now only 1.5 inches of down travel. LOL

I was driving my Westcott-pre-load-collar-equipped truck offroad this past weekend and I can assure you that the wheels move downward by more than 1.5 inches.

The long & short of it (pun intended) is that yes, it is certainly true that a pre-load collar is a bit of a sacrifice. This is my 6th offroad truck over the past 35 years and the first one I've put a pre-load collar lift on. The main reason I did the pre-load is because it was available for these brand new trucks, second is because it' relatively inexpensive, and third is because the sacrifice is minimal for the truck.

All the theoretical keyboard punching math & geometry and why this (pre-load) is such a bad idea doesn't change the fact that this is not a rock crawling truck. People who try to make it into one will inevitably spend a shit-ton of money and, at some point, admit to themselves that they bought the wrong truck.

For what it is, the GX550 is a really nice offroad truck (based on it's width, length, weight, offroad angles, suspension design, drivetrain, price, etc.). A little tweaking here & there can make some small improvements with acceptable sacrifice. Gaining clearance for 35" tires while sacrificing an inch or so of drop is acceptable in my opinion. If I want to start Baja racing this thing, or try King of the Hammers, then I'll drop $10k into an entirely new suspension. But first I'll probably admit that I bought the wrong truck.

 

[Bluegill]

P.S. please don't think I'm attacking you personally, that's not what it's all about

 

[Overandunderland]

My guess is that the spacer is only about an 1” and the preloading of the spring is what nets the 2.5” gain of height.

The collar isn’t a 1 : 1 ration like a spacer lift would be.

I am new to this type of lift as well but what I could discern when researching collar lifts vs spacer lifts

The leverage ratio should be the same going up and down though, unless there's something else going on besides preload. If I'm wrong on this, which is possible, I'd be open to more details, though.

 

[Overandunderland]

P.S. please don't think I'm attacking you personally, that's not what it's all about

No offense taken. I disagree with your analysis, but I'm certainly not attacking you personally either.

 

[S SUBERI]

All of this really doesn't really matter that much to me. I am perfectly happy with my Westcott Build. If I was really in to off-roading I would have bought a much different vehicle. The GX if perfect for me for what I want it for. If there are questions about the Westcott lift, though I think its better to ask them before posting information that might not be correct about their product. Please don't take any offence. Fortunately for me I am perfectly satisfied with the information I got from Westcott and very satisfied with their expertise and products. This is a very good thread for those of us that are interested in an cost effective lift.